Balance Thread

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Ferox, Nov 9, 2016.

?

What you consider to be generally the strongest nation right now?

  1. Algeria / Turkey

  2. Austria

  3. England

  4. France

  5. Poland

  6. Prussia

  7. Russia

  8. Spain / Vencie

  9. Sweden

  10. Ukraine

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    I think a small camp where you can ONLY train 17c muskets would be best, like the imperia mod, however there would still be mass slaughtered by merc dragoons.

    -one unique camp (max 1 building) where you can train ONLY 17c muskets
    -replace +defense upgrades with something like +life (50 hitpoints is such a joke)
    -give all 17c muskets at least some small not upgrade able armour.
    -reduce the costs per shot, 3 iron and 3 coal for 13-15 damage is too much.
    -add attack upgrades 4-6 for not ukraine musketeers which will reduce building time.
     
  2. Kamilow

    Kamilow Well-Known Member

    Hello:D

    My suggestions ( not only balance) :

    - Increase creation speed of those units : Light Infantryman , Jannissary, Archer , Tatar , Reiter , Swedish Reiter , Winged Hussar , 17c. Muskeeter , Mameluke , Strelets , Vityaz .
    - Increase Winged Hussars health points ( 235+100 = 335) and give them possibility to create formations.
    - Add voice of explosions when Grenadiers destroy walls and buildings.
    - Add animations of moving grass and trees on the wind
    - Add new building - farm. Breeding cows for milk and meat (another source of food).
    - Create land campaign for France ( now is only Naval). Maybe new Dlc with new units for France? For example : Chasseurs à Cheval , French Lancers ,
    Mounted Grenadiers , Troopers Cavalry , Fusiliers du Roi .
    - Add new units for Spain , Venice and England
    - Increase attack of polish pikemans ( 7+3=10). They no have any armour.
    - Increase attack of Mameluke and Spakh.
    - Create Venetian Campaing about Cretan Wars with Ottomans.
    - Add new factions Moldavia and Wallachia.
    - Add artilleryman to cannons
    - To weaken the Hetman attack
    - Decrease health points of Vityaz ( 480 - 100= 380) .
    - Increase attack of Hussar and Prussian Hussar.
    - Add melee unit to Ukraine.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2017
  3. Kamilow

    Kamilow Well-Known Member

    Recruitment time of cavalry should be increased.

    Polish Raiders - They are recruiting fast but they are weak. I propose to increase their statistics slightly = 220 hp and 10 attack points.

    17c. Muskeeters should recruit faster.

    Polish Muskeeter should have 90 hp and have more shot power.

    Polish Pikeman should have 100 hp and 9 attack (they have no armor)

    Tatars should recruit very quickly. Also others Turkish and Algierian units.

    Building walls and towers should be more profitable
     
    [PR]Ernest and Aduhi like this.
  4. Aistis1990

    Aistis1990 Active Member

    Polish Winged hussars should have a formation. Why? Because historically they always charged in tight formations. 1 standard 200 hussars. 25 in front. And so on... they had no equals in 17c and couldn't compare with any other cavalry at the time. The bad thing is that here they have very low Hp and can't a formations. If not in vanilla OCMOD3 I hope will add this feature within the game
     
    [PR]Ernest and Ftoomsh like this.
  5. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member

    I am very open to this idea for OCMOD3 and I will work towards implementing it. Davout's original OCMOD for C1 BTW 1.35 + Baddog Mod 1 had a formation for winged hussars. A possibility for OCMOD3 is the single 200 formation type as you suggest. Thus winged hussars would be used as loose hussars until you amassed at least 200. Then you could make a formation. Alternatively we could do a 100 formation and a 200 formation for them.

    In OCMOD3, cold steel needs to get right in amongst muskets (of any type) to come out on top. This includes hussars. OCMOD3 does not emphasize bullet protection from armor as that is unhistorical. You need to engage musket infantry with your own infantry. Then, when the enemy muskets are reloading, you need to charge cold steel or melee cavalry into them. That is the way to do it. Even Winged Hussars will need some care in this regard. Also, it's not a good idea to make any unit in the game a super unit. Or if you do, you need to really limit their numbers.

    I know Winged Hussars are a popular unit and a lot of people want to see them made very strong. However, if one nation gets a super cavalry unit, how the do the other nations ever compete? I want to keep a dynamic inter-nation balance in OCMOD3. This means Winged Hussars indeed can be very good but they cannot be made into super units. Their numbers will need to be limited a bit. For example, if 200 Winged Hussars in formation defeat the largest cuirassier formation 160(?) plus a a back-up of 40 cuirassiers in formation (with equal upgrades) then this would be fine but the question is how many Winged Hussars should be left? Winged Hussars create slowly in 17th C (so as not to be too overpowered) so do we then speed their production rate up in 18th to at least match that of 18th C cuirassiers? That's a rhetorical question. We would probably have to give Poland another upgrade in 18th C for faster Winged Hussar production, or just have it come with the 18th C upgrade itself (which could be a little dearer than for other nations to for pay this).

    Of course, I am just kicking ideas around at this point. Be interested to hear what people think.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2017
    Aistis1990 likes this.
  6. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    Hi

    first there is the general problem that 17c cavalry is Useless in my opinion. you reach 18c quite fast and once you have it you have access to 18c cavalry which should be better then 17c. (I almost never use 17c cav, to change that separate stables in 17c and 18c stables).

    Compare to other RTS many nations have their unique units. in AOE 2 for example there is the samurai which deals bonus damage against other unique units or archer that deal bonus dmg against other archer or something like that.

    you could give them +5 damage bonus against curassiers if they would get a big mali like +20% damage taken from other sources.

    In general that would make the nations units more unique, for example:
    17c dutch musketeer: +2 dmg against unarmoured targets.
    french 18c dragoon: +20% damage against pikeman or melee infantery
    and so on.
     
  7. Aistis1990

    Aistis1990 Active Member

    Nobody says that wonged hussars should be made super units. The thing I suggest is to add 100 and 200 formation. And add health to reach either 275 or 325 health. No need to increase their creation speed. Cuirasiers are already strong and they produce in numbers compared to hussars , but they are slow. BTW if youd like to make very historically accurate game. 17c muskets should have accuracy like 5% and from close distance around 60% . But with such a setting I doubt the people will make muskets out here :) . Another thing about OCMOD3 are you making difference in cold steel types? Slash and pierce? While polish hussars , pikemans , registered cossacks has piercing dmg , while hussars , cuirassiers , sich cossacks has slashing dmg? Im very curious m8 :)
     
    [PR]Ernest likes this.
  8. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member


    Yes, I will be looking at formations for Winged Hussars. I cannot say how soon though. I do balance affecting changes at a fairly slow rate now so that we can assess each change properly before we change the next thing. Balancing the mod is like balancing a thousand piece hanging mobile.

    OCMOD3 has a range damage system. From extreme range, the accuracy of hits is probably about 5% to 10% and from close range the accuracy as percentage of hits probably approaches about 60%. It depends on a random but weighted factor. Reloads take quite a bit more time than in vanilla. Also troops cannot reload while moving but can use another weapon like a the bayonet if they have it and then resume reloading. We don't have full reload graphics though. The basic C3 game now supports swords and pikes as weapons. We use these settings. Whether this equates to slash and pierce I do not know. I think that is getting a bit hypothetical. These different kinds of damage are not modeled. Question: What is more damaging, a slash or a pierce? Answer: It depends. It depends on whether the slash or the pierce hits anything vital. But if you think that is the wrong way to think of it, let me know how you see the difference in modelling slashes and pieces for hit point damage. I am always interested to hear another point of view. :)
     
  9. (OC)Fotheringill

    (OC)Fotheringill Active Member

    Aistis-

    Might i suggest that you try playing the OC Mod if you have not already done so.
     
  10. Aistis1990

    Aistis1990 Active Member

    I will lol. After 2 months maybe. Pc exploded so I can't play c3 from a tablet lol :-D .

    Anyways i like that OC offers more realism and other gaming experience from vanilla. I'm not saying vanilla is bad at some rate. It's just one type of gameplay while OC offers different one :)
     
  11. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    the last time I played the mod (I think it was the mod, may be another one as well)
    I find it quite bad because the dmg was always very high but the hitchance was random. Meaning way to much luck dependent. Also armour was totally useless because gun damage was always > 100 or so.

    I made a small mod where the hitchance is always 100% (I know it is unrealistic but I dont want too much random luck) but the dmg depends on the range. The damage bonus was not only pure percentage based instead it also got a constant dmg boost meaning that every gun, even without upgrades was deadly in close range.
    for example a 17c musketeer had 13 dmg (24 fully upgraded), 1000 range and 400 or so reload time, but it got insane dmg bonus based on range.
    >=80% of range: 100% damage
    >=70% of range: 120% damage +5
    >=60% of range: 150% damage +10
    >=50% of range: 200% damage +20
    >=40% of range: 300% damage +40


    I liked that system because
    a) not to much RNG
    b) armour was very useful but only at long distance
    c) musketeers were useful even at the beginning but only in close range combat, later on even in long range combat

    However what I didnt liked was the micromanagment. Shooters were useless at longer range at the beginning. so you constantly had to order them not to shoot, allow shooting at the perfect time and repeat over and over again. Would be so much more comfortable if I could give them a order like, maximum shooting distance = 700 or so.
     
  12. Loner

    Loner Well-Known Member

    How did you change the damage to range ratio.:confused:
     
  13. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    edit miscext2.script

    Code:
             if not bPeaceSkip then
             begin
                var pobjbase2 : Pointer = gPlayer[TObj(pobj2).pl].objbase[TObj(pobj2).cid][TObj(pobj2).id];
                var pobjprop2 : Pointer = gObjProp[TObj(pobj2).cid][TObj(pobj2).id];
    
                var damage : Integer = indamage;
    
    
    var pobjbase : Pointer = gPlayer[TObj(pobj).pl].objbase[TObj(pobj).cid][TObj(pobj).id];
    
    var px, py, pz, tx, ty, tz : Float;
    GetGameObjectAbsolutePositionByHandle(goHnd, px, py, pz);
    GetGameObjectAbsolutePositionByHandle(trgHnd, tx, ty, tz);
    var dist : Float = VectorDistance(px, 0, pz, tx, 0, tz);
    
        if (weapkind=gc_obj_weapon_kind_bullet) then ///
        begin
            if (dist <= TObjBase(pobjbase).weapon[weapind].radiusmax*0.4) then damage := ((damage*300 div 100)+40)  
            else if (dist <= TObjBase(pobjbase).weapon[weapind].radiusmax*0.5) then damage := ((damage*250 div 100)+25)
            else if (dist <= TObjBase(pobjbase).weapon[weapind].radiusmax*0.6) then damage := ((damage*200 div 100)+15)
            else if (dist <= TObjBase(pobjbase).weapon[weapind].radiusmax*0.7) then damage := ((damage*150 div 100)+4)
            else if (dist <= TObjBase(pobjbase).weapon[weapind].radiusmax*0.8) then damage := ((damage*120 div 100)+0)
            else damage := damage;
        end;
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
                if (TObj(pobj2).bbuilt) then
                damage := damage-TObjBase(pobjbase2).shield
                else
                damage := damage-TObjBase(pobjbase2).shield div 3;
                var pSquad2 : Pointer = nil;
                if (TObj(pobj2).squad>=0) then
                pSquad2 := gPlayer[TObj(pobj2).pl].squads.Get(TObj(pobj2).squad);
    
                if (pSquad2 <> nil) then
                begin
                   var bonus : Integer;
                   if (TSquad(pSquad2).fHoldMode) then
                   bonus := TSquad(pSquad2).fAddShieldHold
                   else
                   bonus := TSquad(pSquad2).fAddShield;
                   damage := damage-bonus;
                end;
     
  14. Loner

    Loner Well-Known Member

    Many thanks.:D
     
  15. Aistis1990

    Aistis1990 Active Member

    Omg!!! Now this system it isa must to have! Much better than some random. The cavalry charges and formations position might change a course of a whole battle!
     
  16. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    I also wanted to make the headshot chance based on range. I think it would be possible to to the same. With slower attack speed I think that 4% or 3% is ok but I want to disable headshot at long range for all units wearing armour.

    Because in reality armour only worked against bullets at long range, in close range combat it was well useless.

    I just tried American Conquest, I still had the game on my PC. Both damage as well as hit chance depend on range.

    I used the editor and send 2 shooter against each other. They fired over 2 min and they still werent dead. There was also a lot of random, one unit was almost dead but the other one only suffered small dmg. Once I moved them somewhat closer they died very quickly. Thats the reason I dislike AQ, way to much RNG.
     
  17. Aistis1990

    Aistis1990 Active Member

    I think that the very first thing before creating mors is to make your own vision how it should be and how it's gonna look and if anyone might enjoy the changes.

    Cossacks Vanilla i like because they hit targets 100% it means that it might take time to kill your target , but at least the shots aren't wasted. And in AQ i made 4 formations of fusiliers. And were attacked by 5 formations of melee indians. Only 1 formation died of i dians and they won against the melee. It looks pretty stupid.
    I Think what cossacks needed is efficiency of shooting range. As you wfitten before I truly support it and really like it. Meaning system dmg - dependent by range. But in cossacks vanilla id say it should be smt like. All musket ppwer a bit lowered and 100% long range dmg , 150% medium range and 200% just before bayonet attack range. Dragoons might have higher shooting power. Let's say 90 compared to others 30-50 . But its a risky for them to stay close melee. And ofc if you are raifing or pursuing enemy units you can ride just near them to deal a heavy blow. Not just put attack with fire at will so they pursue enemy always at their max shooting range
     
  18. [PR]Ernest

    [PR]Ernest Moderator Staff Member

    Please don't talk about moding and mods in balance thread.
     
  19. Kamilow

    Kamilow Well-Known Member

    I think that Tatar horse archers should recruit much faster also other Ottoman and Algierian troops.
     
  20. Hansol333

    Hansol333 Active Member

    I just believe that melee infantry should be 100% useless later on. There are still useful later on the game and take way to less dmg from guns. On the other hand they should be good at the beginning of the game.

    Therefore I think that simple balancing (+/- dmg, training time, upgrades and so on) is not enough. Some advanced changes are needed. Like 17c pike takes bonus gun damage once the dmg is high enough.
     
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