Discussion in 'Modding' started by Francesco_Cavalli, Dec 26, 2016.
I have no problem with your mod at all.
Any dip news?
Thank for all your work.
Thanks for testing this - I'll try giving pandurs a greater shot radius so they find it easier to hit targets. I would imagine that they should only be built as a special regiment so wouldn't recommend spamming them anyway - if anything they should prompt your enemy into making stupid advances. I might see about getting them to move quicker too.
I'd recommend regiments of 72 at present - my next challenge (one of them) is getting maps to have fewer stupid plateaus so that big battles with more can be fought in the open.
I'm getting quite dissolutioned with the state of melee in the game too, which I don't seem to be able to reinvent as I'd like, so I'll try and focus on smaller details to bide some time until the devs might get to it. Flag bearers is one of my greatest hopes for the next big mod update
Yes please do make pandurs and chasseurs faster. They should be able to perform as you described. Currently I have tried them out again but they seem totally useless. As for the musketeer variations, the Austrian is stronger by 2 melee points only. Not sure if this is what you meant, just reporting in. Grenadiers have usually 35 of melee damage but French ones have 40 which I retain impressive and interesting, especially coupled with the accurate and long ranged chasseurs. Highlanders have become a bit weird. Their melee damage is huge, forgot the number but it was around 40,perhaps 38. If I recall correctly you also left their range as standard Musketeers so they currently work as line infantry units in replacement for grenadiers for the most part - except for the grenade throwing feature. Since I'd like to play Austria these days I will try to test it out more but as things are France is my favourite nation in the mod... Well, like Vanilla. Lastly there is a bug I must report. Hussars get the first 2 upgrades for their melee attack, maybe the third even but then they stop and are stuck at 16 damage regardless of how many upgrades you develop. Not sure if this is valid for other cavalry units as well. Let me know if you can replicate this, I was playing as France when i realised of this bug.
I believe that sharpshooters or skirmishers (probably the same thing is this mod) should;
Take longer to make or "train" out of the barracks. Probably 2 or 3 times longer than standard 18th C muskets;
Move a bit faster than standard troops.
Have greater range and shot-power but slower reload than standard troops.
Have available their own open skirmish formation for 18 and 36 troops (nothing bigger) and this formation should be makeable without an officer or drummer.
They probably deserve sight range equal to a drummer's too.
It makes sense, and I agree. Now there is a need to keep Pandurs and Chasseurs as two different units with their own features, the highlander I don't know on the other hand.
Do we have any proof they were used as skirmish/light infantry in the same way as the previous 2..? In the napoleonic era all the scottish regiments I can think of were line infantry, but alas that was some time after C3's main period
Highlanders working as hardy line infantry as they do now in the mod makes a bit more sense, though they should have a much longer training time so that they are used by the player as an elite and small unit, otherwise musketeers and grenadiers are useless to the English player.
I seem to have problems with performing bayonet charges, not all of my units in the formation will charge, some of them are still in firing position.
Right - all those skirmisher points will happen! Sorry the balance is off atm, my focus has been primarily on the actual physics of fighting, but since the vanilla melee system is such an unadulterated mess perhaps now is the time to do the number crunch. I think Higlanders should just be strong line infantry - as you say taking longer to train. The only problem is that the ai chooses to build highlanders or musketeers each game rather than both. I've only ever seen Denmark train separate Musket and Grenadier regiments.
That problem @Ejbd is another that awaits a dev fix - we really need a melee attack button. If I increase the minimum range so that charges are better the player loses the ability to fire one last, point-blank volley, which is always fun
I think we will never see this implemented, as vanilla goes a melee charge is just pointless in 99% of cases so they won't bother... I'm afraid.
That problem @Ejbd is another that awaits a dev fix - we really need a melee attack button. If I increase the minimum range so that charges are better the player loses the ability to fire one last, point-blank volley, which is always fun[/QUOTE]
I wish they would implement the melee button and the gameplay would really get better with those bayonet charges! Anyway despite these issues, your mod is still better than the vanilla. Thanks!
Could I suggest decreasing reload times, I find myself using very small formations and constantly micro-moving them to expose unfired muskets. This results in an awful lot of unnecessary micro-management that is not inducive to fun. I understand the desire to have a game with realistic reload times, however as the game is scaled down so too should reload times.
I applaud that you have only the front rank firing, that massively re-defines strategy and tactics in a far more realistic way. However I feel silly constantly rearranging my ranks to maintain a decent output of firepower. Surely there is a balance between the machine guns of the vanilla game and the painfully slow rate at which they currently reload.
Over-all though I am very pleased with this mod, its what I've been waiting for since the game released. I feel like it could replace the old HAWKS Napoleonica mod for AC:FB, which has a very special place in my heart.
Scaling down space dimensions in a model logically requires NO scaling down of time. In fact, time ought to remain the same in the model. Of course this rule could result in playability problems. Events could take too long to happen. By considering what happens in a full (Newtonian) physics engine in a game, like a computer racing car game, it can be proved that time must not be re-scaled. If you re-scaled time in a racing car game, by speeding time up, the cars would race around the track unrealistically fast. It would look unrealistic because you would know the car would spin out at the first corner (and that it could never accelerate and brake as fast as it appeared to in the game). Thus Newtonian physics engine considerations tell us laws implementing acceleration must stay the same. This involves mass and time. Mass is imputed to be the same as a real car's mass. Space dimensions are all, relatively speaking compared to each other in the model, unchanged IN the model. I mean the X,Y and Z axes are all the same relatively in the model. The model however shares time with the real world.
But you are right. Reload times that are "too realistic" could make the game seem too slow. Especially with cannon. The answer is to find a compromise. But C3 standard reload times are certainly too short for any realism mod. There has to be a compromise in the middle somewhere.
I very much understand this; until we have morale (if ever) no system will ever be perfect. As it stands the reload rates aren't huge and I'd actually be more inclined to slow unit pace so that pikes suffer more marching head-on into fire.
While I'm at it - little update that corrects the hussar damage problem found by @Milo_of_Lombardy and that increases the effectiveness of light infantry somewhat. Sadly I'm getting blackscreens trying to implement a new skirmish formation, but I'll keep trying
Our early test mod (OCMODLITE made by Old Cossacks clan) is still much less sophisticated than yours in the matter of fire. I can't create bullet physics yet. I will have to learn quite a bit more before I do things like that. I have not looked at your mod yet but I am amazed by the reports of it above. It sounds very good.
To simulate deaths from volley fire at realistic load rates, I did some simple but quite effective things. I increased basic reload rate to 750 frames. At 50 frames a second that's 15 seconds of course. In a game, that timing doesn't seem that long actually but the muskets certainly have to retreat after firing a volley at pikes unless they themselves have cold steel support. I increased the base shot power of 17th C muskets to 17. They also create at the same speed as pikes in our mod so you can get good numbers of them but they still need cold steel support early to mid 17th C.
As well as increasing the base shot-power to 17, I increased the head-shot percentage from 4% to 25%. This immediately meant that even base-power muskets, especially in formations to give volleys, do get kills on the first volley. In one test I lured to two AI pike groups of 36 to attack one 17th C musket formation of 72. I controlled my muskets to fire a volley and retreat, three times. They took a terrible toll on the pikes by the end of three volleys but as I had retreated into a corner deliberately without support, the pike remnants, only about a third of the original troops, still routed and killed most of my formation. Some of my stragglers did get killed in retreats after the volleys too. I was quite happy with this outcome from a simplistic model using the existing weapon parameters.
Obviously, full bullet physics must improve all sorts of issues. I refer to enfilade (firing from flanks along lines or even firing from the front down lines of troops in column formation), defilade (cover) and issues like the reverse slope, gravity effects on bullet trajectory etc.
On the issue of morale, is it correct that nobody has solved implementing it in C3 yet? I have a simple (maybe too simplistic) theory that if the break formation command combined with the minimum fighting range parameter could both be modified they could simulate a bad drop in morale (when a formation breaks and flees).
The game always uses some automatic commands on formations commanded by a player. After all the player does not usually micro who a whole formation fires at, he just attacks an enemy formation and the units' individual targets are determined by the engine (in most cases I think).
The game could be modded (I guess) to use the "break formation" command on the player's formation when it determines, with other new routines, that this formation has lost morale.
Then, all those soldiers from that formation could be temporarily (this is the tricky bit I think) given a very excessive minimum weapon range so they simply use the current engine to run away. They look like they are fleeing the battlefield. In reality, in the engine, they are trying to retreat to some large (and totally unworkable) minimum weapon range. The trick would be changing these parameters and changing them back later for individual troops. That might not be possible.
I am wondering too. A lot of these Cossacks games have unused capabilities in the engine and scripts. For example, in C1, it was possible to garrison buildings. I made it possible to hide peasants in Town Centers in a test mod of C1. I could hide muskets in there too but I couldn't mod them to fire from inside. Is it possible there is an unused morale function hiding in all this code?
I think my reload rates are at 600 as a base, so not far off. I'd love to do 3/4 shots per minute but as above, this would ruin the current balance, sadly. At the moment I think my kill rates are pretty realistic, but without morale this just equates to 'low' - great for musket battles but not so much when fighting ai pike spam.
The easiest way to add morale would be to make units scan the area around them (as they do when deciding whether to fire or not) and if their regiment has suffered a certain amount of losses, to apply the same script that makes 17th Century musketeers flee. I spoke about it with @General WVPM (who is by far the best scripter here) who agreed it should be possible, but would only ever be simplistic, and possibly a huge performance drain. I think GSC would have a go at implementing it if the demand was high enough - I think they're already realising that there's a huge market on Steam ready for a more complex game
Thank you for the constant work. I'm going to be playing tonight a little bit and tell you if I have anything to report. It is indeed a bit frustrating to use musketeers in general in their current state as making them fire in proper numbers is a bit complicated. I'm sure the work you are doing with the skirmish formation, or the one pertaining the ranks advancing and retreating to fire each time is time consuming and complex so I guess we'll have to wait a bit.
I wish there was a single rank formation option... It would make troop management easy.
As a last thing, do you think it might be possible to remove the gold upkeep for most units? Personally, I think its ridiculous to have to pay in gold each minute for each officer and dragoon you have. I understand perhaps huge ships, that's fine, but officers? 18th dragoons?
Especially as this mod requires more small formations to be playable in the current state, officers should cost no upkeep as you need many to manage a relatively small army. Tell me if you agree or not, it's ok either way.
Sounds like you understand exactly what I mean, and have some really good options in mind to solve it.
To clarify I didn't mean we needed to scale time, just reload times to create realistic tactics. At least according to historical accounts formations could get quite a number of volleys off at infantry while they closed to melee. Certainly I've read that you could expect 2 maybe 3 volleys against horse while they closed in. So maybe your solution of slowing unit pace will work as effectively as slowing reload.
Keep up the good work!
Edit: This is pure aesthetics, but is it possible to add lingering powder smoke? I know the initial muzzle flash is part of the animation, but would it be possible to also spawn slowly dissipating smoke cloud?
I wish this Options, no cannons or mortars howitz, do you?
I have played sometime tonight and ran into a seemingly rare bug, an error come up and stops the match. After some fiddling with the keyboard buttons I managed to continue and finish the skirmish. The error came up maybe a half dozen times and said Access violation at address 007c2542 in module cossacks.exe. read of address 00000008.
At some point in the random map I also noticed the musket sounds didn't play the battle was almost fully silent. No idea if either bug is common enough but this was my first long match using the mod.
On a positive note I appreciate how cannons realistically kill 2-6 units per shot and not the terribly massive amount of soldiers they used to take down before. Same for building debris, I think most units survive stones being flung at them. It used to bother me so much!
I too have found this - I'm afraid it's a memory bug most likely brought out by the more complex entities all soldiers have in the game, to be exact, the fact they still exist as entities until fully decomposed. This will likely be fixed as GSC do general performance improvements (I had the problem at release before I started modding) but I think I can solve it either by increasing the minimum entity to 0 (rather than -2) or by increasing the rate of decomposition. As people love to see havok on the field after battle I'm loathe to do the latter.
Smoke is an interesting one - as an animation rather than a particle entity (as was the case in AOE3) I think I'd have to draw dispersion graphically, as opposed to fiddling with text files to make it linger
In a curious turn, I think I may have found the resolution to musket lethality. I've just tested this, and volleys rip through lines. A unit of 36 chasseurs is capable of wrecking havok if well placed and away from enemy fire.
I've also increased cavalry hp and doubled their base damage in some cases (but raised their sword protection, cav-cav battles are still long). You won't be able to charge prepared infantry head-on, but hitting them while engaged, marching or on uneven terrain is deadly:
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