History of Ukrainian Cossacks

Discussion in 'Fan Zone' started by Nowy, Jul 31, 2015.

  1. Field Marshall

    Field Marshall Active Member

    I am not willing to see other people point of view? Nowy it seems that you don't actually read my comments. It is unfortunate that you don't, you could learn so much from them about proper discussion.

    You admit that you do not have a a solid use of the English language yet you discussed something that i gave you literally links to the dictionary definition and examples of its use in English and yet you still believe that your use is correct. You have also attempted to change the language? You ask me to better learn my English? Read your comment, then read mine.

    I unlike you, it seems, read all the links and analysed them. They are proper support for many of the things that codor_fly proposed. Your comment is just as out of topic as any other comment I have made.

    I will not stop giving advice because it is a good thing to do. Stop asking other people like me to stop writing things. If you live in a country where there is no freedom of expression please keep to yourself, do not expand totalitarian views on to others. If you know how to take an advice like many people in this community actually know then you can improve your own knowledge something that is unknown to you.

    I would love to look into this resource unfortunately for some reason is not loading for me.
  2. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    @Feld Marshall I ignore your pure message which again is not on topic. You can not teach me English when you can not understand why I was used "cast" word there. :D
    So, you see that I was right. Beauplan did not introduce properly the term "Ukraine" in France, he was aware about it, that's why he changed this name few times. :D

    On side note. Do you know that Beauplan was employed to made a plan for Kudak castel which was intented to prevent Cossacks radis on Ottoman lands? Cossacks burned castle and that was later called Cossacks uprising. :cool:
    I never said that tabor tactic was invented by Polish, but tabor tactics Polish used on Ukraine through centuries when Cossacks have not existed yet. In this meaning it was specific polish tactics there. It is obvious that Cossacks bored this tactics from Polish and not from Scythes. The latter were old ancient tribe not so well known in 17th century, becouse they lived long, long time ago. Cossacks were multinational caste of warriors. There also were Polish which well knew tactics used in Polishn army. That's why it was easy adopt this tactic from Polish and not from Scythes which were almost forgoten tribe at that time. :D
    Finally you can see that I was right.
    I mentioned these Cossacks raids on Ottoman lands far, far to Istanbul = Constantinople. :D

    Cossacks raided Ottomans on chaika boats.
    Turks suffered with these raids therefore they demanded from PLC to stop these raids.
    That was hard case becouse Cossacks still wanted to plunder Ottomans and they sometimes did not obey such orders.
    These led to hard wars with Ottomans and Cossacks rebellions too. :(
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  3. Unikron

    Unikron Active Member

    The Cossacks were on their own and did not listen to the decrees. War with the Turks and the Tartars was more for religious reasons, as well as revenge for attacks on Ukrainian land.
    condor_fly likes this.
  4. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    It is only partly true, but Cossacks raided Ottomans also for pecuniary reasons even in peace time. They also raided Orthodox Christians Russian, Bulgarian, Greek, even Ukrainian or Polish nobles, magnates, Jews and others too.

    Cossacks raids led to Tatars raids and Ottomans penalty expeditions which attacked Ukraine. There were few wars for that reason too. Cossacks profited with these raids and wars, but Ukrainians people heavily suffered with Tatars raids and when Ottoman or any enemy, or allied armies marched over Ukraine.

    Worse that these Cossacks behaviours undermined PLC and later led to Cossacks uprisings, becouse they still wanted to raid or marched on wars against Ottomans or Russia, or Poland, or whatever. That was horrendous disaster for Ukrainians, hundreds thousands killed, wounded, captured, fled, many victims and horrible ruined country.

    These struggles and wars never were good for Ukrainian people, especially these waged on own soil isn't it.
  5. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    Yes he mention that in his book, well mostly to say that it was destructed soon after by the first cossacks coming home and that Koniecpolski ecrased them.

    I said that a tactic similar from the Tabor was used by the scythian and a lot of nomads after them, I know that scythian didn't exist anymore at the time of the cossacks but other nomads present in this geographical area used it too and from what I read the cossacks in their origin are a lot more close to nomad than anything polish. Hence my doubt that cossacks learned it from the polish army, it's more like they knew it from the beginning.

    But Ottoman used Tatars to plunder the ukrainian territory, the description of Beauplan of those raids is impressive in that matter, he explain where they pass, how they do it, their raids tactics and how they avoid the cossacks soldiers.
    In this picture Beauplan explain that in order for the cossacks to found the tatars, they would follow the trail left by the horse in the high grass. When the Tatar knew they were followed they would disperse themselves in 4 groups each going in a different direction and then divise themselves in 3 groups again doing the same, and again divise themselve in 3 groups as to be only 11-12, when they were so few per groups the trail they left in the grass would dissapear the following day. There was also other tactic but it would be too long too explain them !

    When cossacks did raiding he wrote that one of the principal target of the cossacks would be slaves market, but along the way they would plunder the land also at the same time, they don't loose time ! it's not uncommon for the period, on the contrary. And after they hide everything in Skarbnytsia viïs'kova !
    (Is there even a time of peace between tatars and cossacks ?)

    Nowy, you reduce a lot the cossacks uprising to, "they want to raid and the PLC tried to stop them", that's really shallow. There were others things causing those uprising, like the harsh serfdom present in the PLC.
    condor_fly likes this.
  6. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    You supposition that Cossacks borrowed tabor tactics from nomads is cleary false. Nomadic tribes lived only in Ottoman and south Russia lands at that period. They did not used wagons as battle tactics. Tabor tactics was too static for nomadic tribes. Nomads prefered horse raids while Ukrainian Cossacks were not nomads, they in majority were settled caste of predominantly foot warriors. That's why Cossacks needed alliance with Tatars known from their fine horsemenship.

    What is more nomads did not use fire weapons as main weapons which were primarily weapons in Cossacks tabor tactics. Both these things as well as artillery and cavalry support covered by tabor were borrowed from Polish which many times used these tactic on Ukraine against Tatars, Moldavians, Turks many years earlier e.g. Battle of Obertyn 1531.
    Do you suggest that Cossacks did not notice that and they knew tabor tactic from the begining from ancient nomadic tribes which had not muskets, cannons and musket armed cavlary support ?
    Tatars raided Ukraine many, many times, that's why Cossacks as caste of brave warriors were employed by PLC state to guard borders, key locations, stop Tatars raids and support PLC army. Funny enough that Cossacks many times poorly did that service and Tatars many times raided deeply into Ukraine. In the same time PLC soldiers menaged beat many Tatars raids, freed many yasir and evicted Tatars from Ukraine. Mentioned Hetman Koniecpolski or Sobieski many times won battles against Tatars, while I do not know so many Cossacks battles when they defeated Tatars or stopped their raids.
    In practice Tatars and Cossacks were even allied many times. They both lived with raids and plunder. They supported themselves many times too. :D

    Foeurdr I do not reduce Cossacks uprisings. Only said that in many cases it were local, small mutines or military riots. Read my earlier posts, I specified more reasons why they rebelled.
    One of these were Polish abolishon of Cossacks raids. I even showed main points in Zborow settlement signed by Cossacks which clearly shows what they wanted to gain from PLC. It is obvious that harsh serfdom was not a case there.

    Serfdom was standard system at that time. In neigbouring Russia, Ottoman, Moldavia, Transylovania it was even much harsher than in PLC. Cossacks knew that very well. Cossacks also kept somehow serfdom system in their Hetmanate. So, harsh serfdom was not a case however after few uprisings Cossacks lost some privileges and they seriously feared that they could be treated as serf peasants when they can not raid and plunder.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2015
  7. Unikron

    Unikron Active Member

    It sounds like the view of the Polish gentry of the 17th century:D
  8. [IG]Hipolit

    [IG]Hipolit Active Member

    It is a realistic, very human and pragmatic point of view typical to small societies which cossacks warriors definitely were. They wanted to live their lives happy, plunder, get money for register and did not care about ukraine as indenpendent country as we want to see it today. If you try to add to those cossacks warrior cast pseudo nationalistic values, liberation theories, pro abortionism movements, gender and in vitro then you do not find this what Nowy presents right. Why? Because you think about something that simply did not exist those times :) more open minds, less emetions and no impurities of today politics!
    Nowy likes this.
  9. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Thanks Hipolit that you undestand what I was taking about.
    I already lost hope that there are open minded memebers which can see history of Ukrainian Cossacks as it was and not how they imagine that these Ukrainian Cossacks were fine society of free men which fought for Ukraine freedom. Historical facts discreadit such funny view.

    Ukraine Cossacks fought for their privileges and money, that was all what they could gain at that period.
    There was not Ukrainian nation to liberate at that times as somebody want to see today.

    These Cossack bad behaviours, rebellions and bad choices led to bad outcome for Ukraine at that times.

    This is HISTORICAL FACT and not Polish or any gentry point of view.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  10. Unikron

    Unikron Active Member

    I do not want to offend anyone. The Cossacks were really robbers for the Poland, Turkey and Tatars. In those days all were bad for everyone. But for my people, cossacks are heroes, their always bring the example as a model of fighting for their freedom. Maybe not, but it's our history.
    condor_fly and Foeurdr like this.
  11. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    You have good rights to think that Cossacks were heros. Many people likes cossakcs, pirates, vikings, Monglos or any other bad guys, which made a lot of crimes. That is not bad until you can undestand that history was not so pretty as we sometimes imagine.
  12. condor_fly

    condor_fly Administrator Staff Member

    Cossacks was not another society - they was a part of Ukraine nation and they realy fight for their freedoms becouse it was alawed by Rech Pospolita (PLC) acts and laws, but polish magnats didn't want to let cossacks to use what belonged to them and plunder, killing ukrainians and ukraine warriors cossacks anyway.
    The cossacks freedoms was, as we call today, human rights: life, property, religion...and they had protected it effectively and their glory saves Ukraine nation for today.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  13. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    Do not be funny.
    Why Cossacks so poorly defended Ukrainians and allowed Tatars, Turks, Transylvanians, etc raid on Ukraine?
    Do you really think that Ukrainian magnates, nobels, Polish and Jews were so foolish they they would kill or slave Ukrainians people which worked on their vast plants, bought their goods and supported PLC armies?

    Do you know that Cossacks lost some privilages and rights in PLC after they made lot of crimes and rebellions?

    Did Cossacks got the rights to raid other lands, kill, robber or rape civilians, attack other religions and nations?
    Do you know that they hanged many Catholics, Jews and dogs together becouse few wild Cossacks said that all these victims were from the same bad family. Do you suggest that was freedom and human rights?

    I can understand that Ukrainians try find in their history brave heros, but they could be more reliable and realistic.

    Make love not wars!
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2015
  14. condor_fly

    condor_fly Administrator Staff Member

    1. Cossacks arise to protect Ukraine (Polish, Litvinia) lands from south hordes and defended it mach more effectively then litvinians and polishes, wich had unsuccess in that case and was defeated by turkish-tatars many times.
    2. Yes, polish magnates were so fullish that they have killed and slaved Ukrainians people which worked on their vast plans, becouse they afraid ukrainian's upraise.
    Do you know about polish magnates were allowed to do the "right of the first night" only on Ukraine lands and they have no punish for kill ukrainian nobles and peasants (remember Khmelnicky's wife and son was unpunished killed by polish noble Chaplinsky).
    Did polishes got the rights to raid Ukraine lands, kill, robber, hange or rape civilians, gone on to Ukrainians with fire and sword only becouse they want to live as a human not a slaves?
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  15. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    From what I read from Beauplan, Cossacks defend their frontier well and the tatars are really prudent when they are raiding trying to avoid as much as they can to be seen.
    Beauplan talk a lot about the geography of Ukraine (he is a cartographer too after all) and he comment like how this place would be good to fortificate, how this one is avoided by tatars as cossacks tend to make dreadful ambush there. In my opinion they defend the territory well, especially if you consider how vast it is. They pushed back many tatar raids.
    Tatars where hard to catch, Beauplan explain that when raiding they always try to avoid the fight since it didn't profite them anyways.
    For the PLC to intervene with its army, it has to be a big tatar expedition who could also threaten the country so maybe it's for this reason you hear more of PLC army defeating tatar than the cossacks, you always hear of the biggest evenement more than the less important (in size) but more frequent. And even then you could say that the registered cossacks who fought in the PLC army defended ukraine against.

    Coming back on the tabor tactic what does make you think they learned it from the polish ? After all using the wagons was know since long ago, it doesn't change much if you use a bow or a musket (by the way nomad use it when they are attacked with their camp).

    And thanks Nowy to have implied we were close-minded, I liked it a lot after having collected information on a subject I didn't knew well. Oh, and if you like so much say your post show historical fact, accompany them of at least a basic link or give maybe one author from whom you had the information, because otherwise it's just you saying. Like the tabor, I searched nothing show cossacks learned them from polish, so it's not easily found.
    Unikron and condor_fly like this.
  16. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    1. Show me any historical evidence that Cossacks defended Ukraine more effectively than Polish and Lithuanian forces.
    Cossacks never did such service more effectively, becouse they were too weak to stop Turks themselves and Tatars usually can avoided Cossacks stanitse forts. Cossacks were in majority to slow foot soldiers which were incapable to catch rapid Tatars raids and can not withstand alone against large Turks army. Therefore they needed help from PLC and they all together can won against Ottomans. However Polish army many times alone defeated Tutks and Tatars too. Show me historical examples when Cossacks alone defeated Turks army or Tatars raids on Ukraine. :D

    2. Do not be funny. You cast here untrue stories. Magnates did not killed common Ukrainians which worked on their vast lands. Magnates were not fools they did not kill their workers. However magnates sometimes sentenced to death many criminals which plunder, robber, rape, mutined and killed other men. Magnates did not fear so much Cossacks uprisings, becouse these were to small and easily suppressed in the begining. Magnates had their own forces and any Cossacks riots could fear them. However nobody likes losses in his properties, and Cossacks burned many magnates villages, killed many magnates subjects. That's why PLC send penealty expeditions to stop Cossakcs riots. What is more some magnates sometimes supported Cossacks rebellions for some reasons e.g. magnates rivalry or religions tensions. For instance read about magnate family Ostrogski. That was until 1648.

    3. "Right of the first night" are clearly fairly tales and many times simple fibs known in all Europe, not only Ukraine.
    Do not forget also that majority magnates families on Ukraine were Polonised Ukrainians or better say Ruthenians becouse there were not Ukrainian nation at that time. Look at Ostrogski, Wisniowiecki, Zasławski, Zbarski and other magnates families roots.

    4. Yes, Chaplinski was accused about punishing and killing son of Khmelnytsky and that was one from some other personal reasons why Khmelnytsky went to Cossacks, however he was Polish nobelmen too.

    5. Fire and sword cases were clear penalty expeditions over rebelled Cossacks and peasantry which did lot of crimes. Rebels killed civilians, Catholics, nobles, clerks, officials, Jews and others. Rebels did horrible national and religious cleanings on Ukraine. Rebels burned villages, robbered, plundered, looted, raped etc. That's why multinational PLC forces send peneltay expeditions to suppress and sentence these criminals.

    That were historical facts.
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2015
  17. Nowy

    Nowy Well-Known Member

    1. Cossacks as brave foot soldiers prefered defensive tabor tactics, they were incapable to stop or catch rapid Tatars raids. They only could defend local places and inform PLC army that Tatars are comming. That's why you can not find any historical evidence that Cossacks stopped Tatars raids. Cossack were incapable to stop even small Tatars raids, becouse Tatars were too fast for Cossacks. Even Polish and Lithuanian excelent cavalry, which knows Tatars tactics, had lot of troubles with Tatars raids. Nevertheless there are lot of evidence and historical facts when PLC defeated Tatars or Turks which you can easily find even in wikipedia. For instance read about Polish Hetmanes Zołkiewski, Koniecpolski, Potocki, Sobieski etc.

    2. Tabor tactics used Polish army on Ukraine and Cossacks can saw how it worked. That was not tactics known from ancient ages. Tabotr tactics Polish somehow borrowed from Czechs Husites and smartly adopted to modern weapons, muksets, cannons and cavalry support. Cossacks which serviced for PLC saw these tactics and bored it for their own forces.
    Bows and spears were differently used than muskets and sabres which were primarily Cossacks weapons at that time.
    Cossacks were in majority illiterate, they were incapable to read about Scythes or other ancient nomads. However they can easily learned tabor tactics form Polish. They saw on their soil how effectively Polish can defend chosen area.
    How successfully use tabor in battle I already gave you one example Battle of Obertyn 1531.
    Did you notice that or maybe check it or find more information in that matter?

    Wikipedia is ready for you. Then you also can go to closest library. Do not be so lazy. :D
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2015
  18. Unikron

    Unikron Active Member

  19. [IG]Hipolit

    [IG]Hipolit Active Member

    Calling the Chmielnicki cossacks rebel a 'Polish-Ukrainian war' is a huge exaggeration and over-interpretation aiming at creation of new facts and impressions among readers today using events from the past. If you are careful in reading and press this link then the title of this chapter suddenly changes to '...Polish-Cossacks war...' Well, this 'trick' clearly indicates the intentions of the author and his\her reliability...
  20. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    The PLC needed the cossacks to help them against tatars and ottoman and vice versa, from my understanding it's a case of interdependence.
    I don't know for the battle where the polish army defeated alone the Tatars all those I saw where PLC army including a good number of cossacks like during the battle of khotin.
    What I know for sure is that the cossacks guard their frontier by settin ambush to ennemy army who feared to fall in them, and lot of scout to spot the tatar and that send army to pursue the tatars as they know. Will you deny those efforts, say they were meaningless and never achieved anything ?
    something I found interesting while searching on tatar raid (it concern more russia but well it still good) : http://www2.econ.hit-u.ac.jp/~areastd/mediterranean/mw/pdf/18/10.pdf

    Concerning the Tabor where you made a ridiculous interpretation of what I said about scythe and everything, the idea was to say that it's was a tactic know from antiquity and that it never dissapeared as the successive population also knew it. I never said anything about cossacks reading text about late antiquity about scythian.
    I did my little research on this, so far I knew that the hussite used it in the XVth century and I think they inspired a lot of country and gave a new wind to this tactic in adapting it to the new powder weapon, I'm now thinking this defensive tactic in fact never disappeared like I said above, on wiki there is also the mention of the battle of kalka of the XIIIth century (I didn't check more the veracity of this yet), so I still don't see why cossacks had to learn it from the polish.
    If you have something that show it I would gladly accept it but for the main time I continue to think cossacks knew it already when they formed the zaporoshian host.

    Thanks a lot Nowy for this really helpful advice. Wikipedia is nice to have a rough idea, but I prefer having a book made by an historian. I already said before that where I live it's hard to find book on the topic, none are in any nearby library at least, I have Russia or the Ottoman empire at best. I asked already in the another thread because I have to buy them if I want to have something to read, but you didn't give any. Well I guess I'm still to lazy to rely this soon on someone who say it's easy to found and know a lot on the subject since he base everything on serious historical book.
    condor_fly likes this.
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