Is Russia too strong early game?

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by kaiser_frisia, Oct 22, 2016.


Should Russia be nerfed?

  1. Yes

  2. No

  1. kaiser_frisia

    kaiser_frisia Member

    Hello fellow comrades,

    I play online multiplayer most of the time. The format is 2v2 or 1v1 with 0 Peace Time and Normal Ressources.
    So this is out of the way then lets get on topic.
    I find it extremely easy to win with Russia in this setting. The Pikeman are stronger than any other pikeman in the game. They attack 33% faster and have only 5 less Hp than the "normal" pikemen of austria etc.. For the increased attack speed they dont lose the additional 4 armor you get through upgrades like the ottoman pikemen or the poland one but dont quote me on that one.
    The unit trains slower than the "normal" pikeman but the barracks of russia are dirt cheap. You can get three easily after a few minutes. After that the slower training time is meaningless, b ecause the barracks of the other nations cost 3000 gold and that is very had to get early. Turkey and algeria are an exception of course. So early game the unit is stronger than any other pikemen, only the general of russia is weaker than the other generals but that hardly matters. With full upgrades ab big russian formation of pikemen wins against any other upgraded formation by a long shot. Im speaking of only 30-40% losses, its insane. You can test my assumption in the editor. Only a small formation can win against a small russian formation, because of the stronger general but not all the time. In bigger formations however russia wins 100% of the time.
    So should russia be tuned down? What is your opinion ?
  2. Anatotitan

    Anatotitan Active Member

    I do agree that Russian three-barracks-rush is a way too viable strategy in a no pt game. That is however not due to the Russian pikemen being stronger, but rather due to the Russian barracks being so cheap - they cost no gold and barely rise in costs. As a results it is no problem for a Russia player to have three barracks when other nations don't even have two. When you produce pikemen from three barracks at once the added training time of a few seconds barely makes a difference.
    Now I know that Russia has other weaknesses instead (for ecample the slow construction time), so this might be ballanced better in other set-ups, mainly long pt ones. But I would propose nerfing Russia by either making the barrack's cost scaling more drastic, or by adding a gold price to the barracks.
    Either way, the result should be that Russia can't get three barracks early on, two should be more than enough.
    I suppose adding a gold price would fumble too much with the gameplay style that makes Russia Russia, thus I think the best path of action would be the higher cost increase of Russian barracks.
  3. Freestyle

    Freestyle Member

    No offense, please spend more time in the game before running / voting in polls, as it may give the false impression to the devs (I hope they are aware most experienced players don't visit forums).

    In 1k games with experienced players, fast diplo is the king. Getting a diplo with Russia is extremely costly - no matter how many pikes you spam, any other nation will have a pike formation before Russia and then sich cossacks + archers to blow up the terrible russian economy.

    And if the russian pikes get too close to your economy before you get all that, spam upgraded officials and let the bodies hit the floor.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2016
  4. [PR]Ernest

    [PR]Ernest Moderator Staff Member

    No, Russia is OK. Russia is weak in later game. Every nation have to be good in specific rule, pt. You should be interested in venice, spain, sweden and france which are totally the same and always standard = boring.
  5. kaiser_frisia

    kaiser_frisia Member

    I played lots of multiplayer games in C3. I am by no means unexperienced, not a pro for sure. I know that the Diplo is king in all games, but with walls you can block off the sich cossacks and they cant kill the guards if you have them positiond everywhere. Also you have to look at the timing, you speak of formations. My push is comning to your base the time you wont even have a academy or a diplo. Dont underestimate the speed in which russia pumps out pikemen. Go and try it yourself. You will see that ou are at the enemies base right before they have these buildings which you praise so much. That is the reason i opened this thread. So the Devs will know about it.
  6. [PR]Ernest

    [PR]Ernest Moderator Staff Member

    What are you talking about? We can play 5k 0pt or 1k 0pt. I am sure that you will not be able to build walls so fast to defend by sich cossacks.
  7. Freestyle

    Freestyle Member

    I play Cossacks since since 2001. There's not much left to try for me.

    It takes just a little bit of camping to protect the economy before you build a diplo. Poland, Turkey and Algeria are all more efficient rushers than Russia under 1k 0pt settings.

    What about you go and try it yourself against an expert player. Pretty sure you'll come back and close your thread.
  8. kaiser_frisia

    kaiser_frisia Member

    Im sorry i said walls but i meant pallisades, the wood walls. Pretty sure you can get them out faster than the sich cossacks
  9. [PR]Ernest

    [PR]Ernest Moderator Staff Member

    Well, we can also play. I don't think so you will have enough wood for maintenance of it. Sich cossacks can also destroy your palisade really fast.
  10. kaiser_frisia

    kaiser_frisia Member

    I wouldnt say really fast, they do need a lot of time and they are costly too. But the wooden walls are only to buy time for reinforcements to come. But if you both are so well informed. I think i will close this thread cleary i am missing some critical info.
  11. Falc09

    Falc09 Active Member

    I see absolutly no balance problems with russia as it is at the moment.

    Some rush for the diplo center but that doesn't mean they are not building units to defend their early town vs. annoying stuff like algerian archer raids. Use those defence units in small spread groups of 5-10 and keep some 17th cen musketeers at their shooting range but retreat when enemy pikes are too close. Use your own pikes to hold the enemy of until the musketeers have retrieved their distance again. They will shoot russian pikes one after another. Requires some micromanagement but once the diplo center is finished russia has lost.
  12. kaiser_frisia

    kaiser_frisia Member

    The thread was already closed, but i think that defending with 17 ct musketeers is never a good idea. They are hands down the worst unit in the game.
  13. (OC)Fotheringill

    (OC)Fotheringill Active Member

    There are some balance issues, but many are related to PT and starting resources, i.e. Ukraine in a 0PT normal resource game must be able to withstand a 72 unit pike formation from Poland or a mixed Turkish or Algerian attack or it is game over.
  14. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member

    There are certainly balance issues but balance is a very complex thing, especially with 12 nations (soon to be more) and many different peace times and starting conditions. If I could advise the developers, I would say there are many issues to fix before getting to balance issues. For a start, every bug and inaccuracy affects balance. I had a long PT game where, on flat ground, my 18th C Prussian muskets (fully upgraded) were shooting straight through a stone wall at enemy 18th C dragoons. The dragoons were shooting back but came off much worse. It was unfair to the other player. He was sheltering behind a stone wall on flat ground. There is no way that firefight should have occurred. He should have been able to wait until I made a breach and then set up a crescent or arc of shooters aiming at the breach, if I was silly enough to come through a breach that was too small. No units of such a breach defence arc should be target-able by any of my shooters still obstructed by standing wall, i.e. not already in the breach basically. But it never even came to that. My muskets killed all his drags by shooting straight through a stone wall.

    As for the diplo, it is a great leveller. I don't like diplo at all but it does allow nations to cover weaknesses and windows of weakness (these two not being the same thing).

    Russia seems okay to me at this stage. It seems to take forever for Russia to get a diplomatic centre from 1k 0 pt. I find I have to put little packs of pikes in all the gaps to stop mercenary sich cossacks killing my peasants. I build houses all around (Russia needs a lot of houses anyway) and these are like circled wagons. I put little pike packs between the houses. That means I have less pikes to spare for attack formations.

    Experts can defend with Ukraine early by getting a very early diplo centre. I have heard of 7m 30s to 10m 30s being achievable from 1k 0 pt. How an expert with Ukraine goes against an expert with Poland at 1K 0 pt on the short orthogonal (not the diagonal) I do not know. I reckon the Ukes would struggle... but I am no expert.

    From what I have seen in other games, balance can vary with player skill too. Nation A may seem weak in the hands of a noob (because it needs high micro) but in the hands of an expert it might actually be overpowered.

    As I said, there are a hundred and one things to fix before balance refinements. IMHO.
    Freestyle and Falc09 like this.
  15. (OC)Fotheringill

    (OC)Fotheringill Active Member

    A partial leveler with Ukraine is the peasant. That early rush might be defended successfully but it is going to cost peasant deaths. One of the keys is to get the 2X speed of horse production out of the stable. Make as many lanced horsemen as you can to screen for your shooters.
  16. Freestyle

    Freestyle Member

    You just reminded me about the most funny/crazy/non-sense rush ever, which is done by a squad of Ukrainian peasants in 1k0pt matches with 6 players. Ah, good memories and laughs...
  17. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member

    Yes, cheese rushes using peons (the generic term for workers) can happen in a number of RTS style games. Has anyone seen the famous Boxer cheese rush in Starcraft 1? The cheese rush starts after about 3 minutes. I love those Sth. Korean announcers. They get so excited. And look at the audience for an RTS! :)

    And how's this for a fuss over RTS!!!

    Freestyle likes this.
  18. LordWeider511

    LordWeider511 Member

    Russia is hardest nation to play. 3 baracks rush? No 4 baracks, but russia is difficut nation for win. Russia has no chance with fast diplo centre, but any european nation have. Some nation like poland have quick stables and capelans is the best for deffence agains not upgraded army. In the middle of the game the stables for Russia are very expensive. If Russia is playing in rush you can protect by diplo centre and stables. If it goes 4 baracks, it has only 2 CC, and bad economy... After first attack the russia will weak during loo-o-ong time...
  19. LordWeider511

    LordWeider511 Member

    The primary strategy for Ukraine as for any other european nation is fast diplo centre with light turkey infantry. Continue about Ukraine, you have to have 40 horsemen formation till 10 pt comes. When I play Ukraine on 10 pt I have 3 baracks, 1 stable, diplo centre and Lavra for priests. With units I have 40 horserman, 80 muskets, 145-160 turkey infantry, 10 priests, 100 algeria bowmans and (20 horsemen from diplo, or 20 draguns on base, or more bowmans). About mines. You have to have 3-4 gold mines, 2 iron mines, 1 coal+1 coal after 5 minute. At 8 minute you will have the last upgrade for mill. During last 2 minutes your peasants have to harvest 20000 of food for first damage upgrade for ukrainian muskets. Yes, There is some differences possible. For example you can build priests first, instead stable. Or you can mine more stone and build 4-th barack for muskets. The russia has no chance against this without its barracks. If Ukrane don't do this it will wiped out very quickly by any european nation. The musket upgrade is critical. Because european pikeman has armor against bullets.
    For any european nation on 10 pt you will have 120 pikemen(160 for poland) with 4 upgrade, 160 light turkey infantry from diplo, 100 bowman, 40 draguns. The best playing for russia you will have only russian pikemen(200-230) and 40 draguns and 10 priests if you built only 3 baracks not 4... Your strategy will economy and defence, not attack.... If you see bad player this russian horde can kill it. But if you play against normal player, no chance, you have stay on defence. Russia is back to the game only after cavalry upgrade and canons with 18-th sentury... I think the best play for russia is only 3 baracks not 4 and 3-rd CC for economy...
  20. (OC)Fotheringill

    (OC)Fotheringill Active Member


    What starting resources in the above scenario.

    There is a very big difference between 1000 resource start and a 5000 resource start as well as 0pt and 10pt
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