Venetian army beginning to late XVIII century

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Italian Janissary, May 26, 2018.

  1. Italian Janissary

    Italian Janissary New Member

    Hi all!
    Because it seems like Venice is getting a lot of love from the Cossacks fans (but not so much from the game ;) ) I found a video that explains a bit the military history of 18 century “La Serenissima”.
    It’s a shame the video is in Italian only (whith a strong Venetian accent btw haha) but in the last part it tells about Verona’s (city close to Venice and part of the republic) resistance against the French Jacobins, which is pretty interesting.
    In any case there are some cool pictures of Venetian uniforms, battles and portraits from the time.
    Hope you enjoy it :)

     
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
    Burak Damgacı likes this.
  2. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Italian Janissary likes this.
  3. Italian Janissary

    Italian Janissary New Member

    Günaydın! I will look up more stuff, I’ll see what I can find :). Let me know if you have some informations about the Ottoman army of that time! I think the game captures well their uniforms, but they don’t represent their actual army very well in my opinion.
    Let me explain: in Cossacks the Ottoman pikeman, Janissary and Turkish archer all have Janissary uniforms, while I believe historycal Janissaries were the elite of the elite of their infantry, so in smaller numbers. So in game it looks like every foot soldier of the Turkish army is a Janissary. Also the light infantry looks a bit too Arabic in my opinion. Perfect for Algeria but I think the Ottomans should get more Turkish looking light infantrymen :)
    What do you think?
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
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  4. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Günaydın means good morning friend:)) Merhaba means hi:))Ok I'll look up Ottoman uniforms too. Yes, you are right. They didn't represent actual army too. If I find more things I'll share you. Yes, all of the units had Janissary uniforms.Janissaries were the elite infantry at the beginning too. But I think their numbers were raised because of some problems related to corruption, etc. Their numbers raised and raised again and They lost their elite future. The Ottoman army used them in the centre behind guns. They also protected sultan too. These light infantry units like Algerian light infantry used in Turkish barracks in the game. We called as Levent means special marine soldier. Actually, they were marine soldiers. All comes from who know naval warfare and navigation too. Ottoman navy used Greek sailors,some of pirates and also coastal towns people too. They also used for siege and other naval duties. I have no information about using them to the land battles too. Maybe they used maybe not. I think Turkish light infantry unit must change too. The Barbary pirate picture represents real Algerian musketeer too. I found somewhere:)) By the way Tüfekçi means musketeer.
     

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    Last edited: May 26, 2018
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  5. Italian Janissary

    Italian Janissary New Member

    Oh I see! I thought günaydın was more like hello haha. I know Merhaba and Selam but at this time I think iyi akşamlar is the right one . Very good pictures and thanks for the information! I realised just now that in Istanbul there are many metro stops named after army divisions (Levent, Akincılar come to my mind) and I never payed attention to it even though I go there a lot haha. Anyway teşekkürler my Turkish friend! Ottoman army, art and architecture (which again is badly represented in Cossacks games) really fascinate me :)
     
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  6. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Nevermind. I started to learn Italian too:)) Merhaba and Selam mean same:)) İyi akşamlar means good night:)) You're right. Akıncı was light cavalry unit like hussars. They harassed enemy towns, crops, armies and gathered news about enemy positions too. Their duties liked modern commando unit. Cossacks series didn't notice which Ottoman house was correct which was not:)) I think they assumed us as tribe. All houses in the game looked like desert nation buildings:)) But we had plains,mountains,platos and other topograhy too and This means we could built various type of buildings. Wooden, stone etc. Look this link. I gave more house types:))
    http://www.cossacks3.com/forum/index.php?threads/state-vs-country.30223/page-13
    Arrivederci:))
     
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  7. Italian Janissary

    Italian Janissary New Member

    Yep, all the present Turkish buildings look nothing like they should, even though they work for Algeria. The Turkish mosque is the worst example in my opinion, the Suleymaniye mosque could be a great reference. From Cossacks Art of war I noticed they added some good decorations on the Town hall that remained me of the Topkapi palace, but it’s not enough haha. Overall Turkey is probably the country I play the most as they are different from the other generic western nations and I actually find it pretty strong in game. I also love to play as Algeria, very underrated :)
     
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  8. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Yes,you're right friend. In early game you are right Turkey is pretty strong but late game against 18th century armies? They are pretty bad and hard to resist too:)) I liked Tatars, Janissary and heavy spakh but that's all. I think Turkey needs 18th equivalent units, for example dragoons or special units too. I gave tüfekçi example too. They gathered from Balkan states(Bosnia etc) and They were special soldiers like jaegers:)) Turkey didn't fast cavalry too. Tatars are not Turkish units too. They were auxiliary force and used with Akıncı force too. Their duties were plunder the enemy fields etc. Algeria also needs native musketeers too. Look at this link:
    http://www.cossacks3.com/forum/index.php?threads/algeria-rework-idea.29526/
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2018
  9. Italian Janissary

    Italian Janissary New Member

    You are right, Turkey suffers in late game, but I think it’s not completely terrible :). As for early game let’s not forget the amazing Ottoman pikeman who is probably second only to the Cosolete and Swiss pikeman :). A dragoon like unit would be very interesting, but I think it shouldn’t be the bedouin, which is instead perfect for Algeria. I like the idea of the Tüfekçi in game with a similar role to skirmishers btw, but as I said in another post the Janissaries need a little rework to better stand against 18c musketeers. Maybe also have an expensive upgrade to train Ottoman pikemen faster like it was for some units in American Conquest? So they would have a unit that works similarly to the 18c pikeman, only with slightly longer building time but more powerful. This would be to help a bit with the lower amout of barracks you can get for Turkey in lategame instead of the 18c western barracks...
    I love Tatars and the heavy Sipahi is far better than both Reiter and Cuirassier I think :)
    Light Sipahi are weak though, tried to find a use for them many times but they seem not very worth it :(
     
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  10. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    I think that may come from the fact that originally the first version of a working Cossacks concept (So before Cossacks 1 was even out) was made with very few nations (If I remember well it was Russia, Poland, Ukraine and Crimea/Ottoman), they probably made the assets for buildings at this time and to gain time on development they didn't change the building and unit for Turkey later.
     
  11. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Yes, Foeurdr I know, but if we play a new game called Cossacks 3, I wanted to play new buildings,new units, new things too. I saw some of the new units like Swiss Jaeger but I didn't see any new buildings. This game like Cossack 1 but not completely. Cossacks 1 had some original units too. For example Swiss had own musketeer, Turkey had Bedouin Cavalry, etc. This game like between the Cossacks 1 and Cossacks 2 not Cossacks 3 I think. I can say visual effects like American Conquest. I liked at the beginning. Now, I'm not sure. So many bugs, lack of units, lack of features from Cossacks 1 etc.I learned that I don't want to so much expect things too. They promised all the time and we are still waiting too. That's not fair for customers:((
     
  12. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Ciao, Italian:)) I saw many games(45 PT and etc) in Cossacks 3 and Turkey had no chance, Although Turkey had good pikes,janissaries, Tatars and Heavy spakh. I think this is related to how to play this game. Don't forget this friend, Coselete and Swiss pikes have armour and they are undefeateble with all upgrades. Turkey pikes have no armour. But production time is good and also good for massive attacks with cavalry. I think your solution good. If they didn't want to add new units maybe they can rise Janissary shooting range too. I don't know. If they add expensive upgrade for Turkey pikes. Turkey has no defense too. Janissary musketeer production time is so slow, Janissary pikes have expensive upgrade. Light infantry is so bad against musketeers and dragoons. I think no body wants to play Turkey too:)) More barracks is good choice but not enough too. I saw many games against 18th century armies and Although nation had no 18th units and which had more barracks and good army didn't guarantee the victory:)) Because of 18th units had so strong. Tatars with Heavy Spakh so good to use together. But Heavy spakh production time is slow too and when you were producing 50 Tatar, you could produce 10 maybe 20 maybe far less Heavy Spakh too:)) Light spakh production time is good but they are too weak against enemy armour and fire units. You can use as auxiliary force to help heavy ones:)) So Turkey not fit 18th century battles:((
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2018
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  13. Italian Janissary

    Italian Janissary New Member

    Burak, I personally like lower peace time games because I like to build up my economy and army while at the same time while being already in action. I find long pt games a bit boring, long time with no fighting, just upgrading and building and suddenly when the games starts huge sudden massacres haha. But this is just my taste I know many people prefer longer pt games. Although you are right that Turkey can’t compete in extra late game they can still destroy an enemy when he has just entered the 18c and has maybe still only one 18c barrack. But yeah your main ace up your sleeve in this window of time is the combination of Heavy Sipahi and Janissaries I think. The first being already decently upgraded and the second being no match for even unupgrade 18c muskets. Also it would be cool if the Ottoman pikeman had a little armour, maybe even as little as the Portuguese pikeman. I saw many pictures and even battle scenes of Turkish movies and the Ottoman melee infantry seemd to have at least chainmail armour, helmets and sometimes shields in the 17c. In game only the heavy sipahi wears armour. Overall I must say that for my taste the design of Turkish units in Cossacks 3 is probably the best :)
    It would be also cool to see some special Ottoman artillery, they were known for using a bit unpractical but devastating huge caliber bombards :)
     
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  14. Italian Janissary

    Italian Janissary New Member

    And let’s not forget that spamming Mullahs really helps ;)
     
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  15. Loner

    Loner Active Member

    Based on the Austrian Pandur.

    Pander.jpg
     
  16. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Oh, very good Loner. Like a new unit:)) I liked it. You are very capable
     
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  17. Italian Janissary

    Italian Janissary New Member

    Amazing Tüfekçi! Great job Loner ;)
     
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  18. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Ciao Italian, My friend Kamilow, me, my other friend Fluffy and some of members shared more things about Venice uniforms. Maybe you can look at them:))
    http://www.cossacks3.com/forum/index.php?threads/venice-campaign-idea.29220/
    I think Venice didn't represent well in Cossacks 3 too. We can't find any information about Venice army and all of the resources are Italian too. I found Corfu island and some of the Greek islands resource to learn more things about Venice army too.
    https://www.corfuhistory.eu/?avada_portfolio=βενετικές-στολές
    This one is ideal for Venice uniforms:)) I wanted to learn Italian because of historical resource and to talk with my Italian friends too. By the way I like 20,30,45 Pt games:)) I don't like O,10,15 Pt games. I hate diplomatic centre, market,artillery too. I played without them. I learned more things. But I can play 10 and 15 Pt games too:))
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
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  19. Italian Janissary

    Italian Janissary New Member

    Burak this is awesome stuff! We should play a game sometime with whoever wants to join :)
     
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  20. Italian Janissary

    Italian Janissary New Member

    Also I could help with some translation from Italian to English :)
     
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