Venice Campaign - Idea

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by Kamilow, Feb 22, 2017.

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Do you want to see Venetian Campaign and new units for this faction?

Poll closed Nov 8, 2017.
  1. Yes

    18 vote(s)
    81.8%
  2. No

    3 vote(s)
    13.6%
  3. I don't know

    1 vote(s)
    4.5%
  1. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Fluffy did we have a resource? How many units Venice used these gun?
     
  2. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    Each first and 2nd rate ship of around 1697 was assigned 6 x 120 libbre, while galleys and galleasses received a single 200 libbre, although some of the first rates had 4 x 120 and 2 x 200 libbre and some of the galleasses would also be equipped with 2 extra 120 libbra guns.

    All in all I don't have a concrete number but I would reckon there were about 150 of the 120lb and around 50 of the larger 200lb variant. The Venetian fleet on the whole had somewhere in the region of 3000 guns, while the many forts likely had a further 1500-2000 and the land forces had another 500-750. I hope this gives a slight perspective over how common they are in the total Venetian armament of around 5000-6000 large ordinance of various types in the late 17th to early 18th century when the tirar bombe was active. Its major use was at sea, although it was frequently used for coastal bombardment and occasionally brought on land, Francesco Morosini used it on more than one occasion during the first Morean war.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2017
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  3. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Fluffy,thanks again. We have any evidence Ottoman used these gun against Venice? Maybe they captured and used that guns. I have no historical resource. Many of my country's naval history books doesn't mention this gun. My country's naval historians don't mention same gun and they focused on Ottoman navy ports and other things.
     
  4. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    I don't think the ottomans ever captured one, they only engagements it was used in were decisive actions where the ottomans were forced to withdraw or simply lost. As far as I recall references to ottoman sourced don't mention the gun itself, they just talk about huge holes appearing in their ships, while they remain somewhat unclear of what it is that actually caused the damage.

    Even if the ottoman navy did manage to capture one the likelihood they could recreate it would be tiny, the ottoman ability to cast guns at this had fallen almost centuries behind the curve.

    On a slightly different note I also came across a source last night that talked about how ottomans never got the concept of making ships properly, having constructed often them quickly out of green wood causing them to be slightly lighter which explains the speed but also much more likely to develop problems with age like warping and rot, it also somewhat explains the somewhat short production cycle in the ottoman navy. I'm not sure how true this source is though.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
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  5. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    I have no idea this problem. Maybe captured one of them during the castle siege or naval engagement and Ottoman resources not mentioned. My other question; Venice used this gun replaced the land and protect the castles? Many of naval history books said that Ottoman navy not know ship building and etc. But Ottoman naval shipyard used prisoner power and ally man power( For instance; Greek( neighbour islands),France, maybe captive Venice or etc) If we say that they don't know ship buildings. Many of capable ship builders which Ottoman used are bad. Maybe They know ship building. I think I have a suspicion.
     
  6. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    The Tirar Bombe was deployed in forts at home in Venice itself during the earlier half of the war of Spanish succession So early 1700s, they were redeployed back to the Venetian fleet for the 2nd morean war, this is mainly because they have fairly limited use against the Mediterranean pirates so weren't considered particularly useful weapons for peacetime.

    Is that the question you were asking? I'm worried it may have been lost a little in translation.

    Using prisoners to build something that is a staple to your empire seems a pretty terrible decision, what else do you know about what was going on in ottoman shipyards?
     
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  7. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    You answered my Triar bombe question. Thanks. Yes prisoners are not good decision for work the shipyard. Sorry I've read only one book about Ottoman shipyards which is wrote by Idris Bostan. He is well-known naval historian in Turkey. According to him; 17th century Ottoman royal shipyard( Tersane-i Amire) which situated in Istanbul used craftsmen for every work like Venice shipyard. Carpenters,caulkers etc. Ottoman navy used also janissary conscripts for some of the works. Some of the craftsmen conscripted Greek islands etc.This book express Ottoman naval shipyard on all hands like ship types,ship equipments, gun types,shipyard servants etc. When the battle started Ottoman used one rule all trade ships seized by state and trade ship crews also forced to built new ships. I think comparing of two states unnecessary. Venice has long naval history and Ottoman naval history did not have long past. At the beginning Ottoman used small Byzantine shipyards like Gallipoli. But Venice had own big shipyards and well-known sea trade empire. I think occuring techinical issues for Ottoman shipyard was very normal. Because they had no qualified man power but they dealth with problems with some other methods which used Greek shipbuilders, Venice naval prisoners, Genovese,Neapolitan shipbuilders,Holland or England shipbuilders. Fluffy, now I'm reading this book Turkish edition. Book gives extra information for Venice and Ottoman shipyards.
    https://www.amazon.com/Lepanto-Bata...504532173&sr=1-24&keywords=Alessandro+Barbero
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2017
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  8. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    What does it say about the Venetian shipyards?
     
  9. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    I read only 96-100 pages. I realized two things for Venice shipyard. Barbero said, Venice used quick production technics for ship hulls,artillery, etc ( They prepared before) and mentioned two types of galley (light and heavy one). He is very confusing about Ottoman ships. Quoted from Venice ambassador said these ships are bad and useless against Venice navy. They don't use these ships for Adriatic Sea. But same ambassador said new Ottoman ships are very good against Venice ships because of the Ottoman galley foreship is very high. Venice ship is low. Because of the production technic of Neapolitan or Genovese shipmasters which is used for Ottoman naval ship yard. They also talked about oarsmen. He makes comparision. Ottoman used Azap which mean bachelor. Venice used same type of mens. Barbero mentioned one of the good Venice shipbuilder, but I forgot his name. Maybe I can write my new post. Ambassador prised Ottoman oarsmen system, ships,ship builders and also criticised Ottoman ships, ship building technics and ship's captains. Venice used noble captains. Ottoman didn't use noble captains. I must go on reading this book. If I have found new things I'll express you. These book pages express Venice preparation for Cyprus battle. He also expressed Ottoman navy,army preparation for Cyprus battle.
     
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  10. Aistis1990

    Aistis1990 Active Member

    Lol Fishy just because of your efforts here devs should make Venice overhaul! :) since its soo much of reading I don't have much time to read but since you took your time to write and indroduce so many historical facts i gonna get through it and its gonna be like a tour of : "Rediscovering Venice" :)
     
  11. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Fluffy, I haven't finished the book yet. If I finished, I'll share my information and opinions. I want to ask question about Triar bombe again. Did Venice export this gun Russia or other nations? Do you have any information this subject? I found some pictures about naval warfare. Look at the artillery type picture. Number 12 looks like your Triar bombe cannon. That's what I asked this question. Sorry all of these pictures Russian or Spain. One Russian artillery picture off the track. 1843 year. But it looks interesting. I also need Venice military terminology(navy and land units).
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
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  12. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    I might be looking at the wrong one but I can't see the resemblance in any of the examples sorry. Russia did use very large calibre guns though so its likely going to be the large poundage confused with the gun.

    Venice banned artillery exports towards the very end of the 16th century and as far as I am aware this ban continued right up until the end of the republic, this was for national security reasons, by the time it got to the 1550s-60s Venetian guns were by far the best in the world and while they enjoyed selling them on at premium prices it was decided that should they be sold into enemy hands it would hugely undermine their state security so the market was closed down. This ban was never lifted but they did import foreign cannons from time to time, most notably from England. They also cast a few of their own in England and I believe there was a small number cast in the Netherlands too. Before the arms trade was stopped they had a strong trade with Spain, as a long time ally but im not aware of any between Venice and Russia.

    2 of the Tirar Bombe were cast in England while the rest were produced in the Venetian arsenal, none were ever sold thanks to the Venetian legal restrictions in arms trading. I don't believe any were ever captured in battle either, although there would have been at least one present in the arsenal when the French occupied Venice in 1797, I'm not sure where it went after that though, it's likely it was melted down or lost in the chaos.
     
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  13. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Thanks for information Fluffy, Sorry my fault. I haven't said which artillery picture. I said 72.4 KB artillery picture and number 12 is there. I didn't remember Triar bombe picture which you send to me. But It looks like this ship gun. This picture not Russian guns. They are Spanish armada guns I think. I've found Pinterest. I see Venice had strict arm dealing rules. But what if their alliance with Russia or other countries? Allies need guns and weapons. Maybe some of the guns could export this nation to harm the enemy. But I'm afraid I didn't have an information this arms dealing. I must search this and read more books.
     
  14. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    I thought that might be the one you are referring to.

    They didn't have such strict rules in other military assets, ships were somewhat restricted but there are quite a few examples of a lend lease style system being in place. small arms and armour were frequently traded, this would be the backbone of economic activity in quite a few areas of the Venetian terrafirma. The ban on exporting cannons is just that, the advantage was too great to just sell it away. Venice was a neutral nation that wasn't involved with military alliances in that capacity, when the city was threatened she would call for the support of nations with an interest in fighting back (usually the Ottomans) aggressive nations, so there wasn't ever the circumstances that would leave the situation of that kind of arms trade.
     
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  15. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Thx Fluffy. Good expressions. I see the situation completely. I think this is the my enemy's enemy is my friend situation. I must search deeply the period of the treaty of Karlowitz. Because Ottoman Empire dealt with multiple fronts and lost the battles. Ottomans fell into a decline. Maybe allies helped each other against a common enemy to capture new lands. We don't know. Venice is one of the allies and most likely to help allies. Because of this situation Maybe they suspended the arm trade rule for a while. Bear this in the mind Russia required more ships and artillery. Because of the Black Sea. One other problem; Did Russia use Venice guns or ships or shipbuilders?That's why I must search deeply. All historical events can be interrelated.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
  16. Fluffy Fishy

    Fluffy Fishy Member

    As far as I have always been able to make out the treaty of Karlowitz ending the Great Turkish war wasn't so much a coordinated war between great allies as a cluster of separate smaller wars against a common enemy, Karlowitz just ends these wars in one large peace negotiation. Austria and Venice weren't the most comfortable of allies, their fairly long border and influence over the local region combined with Austrian expansionism meant that the two sides were rather wary of each other, its just they never came to see any real conflict, likely because it would have been taken advantage of by the Turks.

    Records of the Russian ships are pretty horrific before 1696 the formalisation into an organised state navy by Peter the Great. What is quite obvious is the difference of styles between Venice and Russia so its very unlikely that they would have been any trade. Russian cannons are much heavier weighted than most of Europe and while I'm not an expert on them I think its fair to say they likely didn't purchase them from abroad, the expansion of the Russian fleet was more a part of the modernisation process that Peter the great spent the vast majority of his reign trying to push. As a person its certainly no secret he loved ships so with his position as monarch he built a large number of them, conscious that Russia was vulnerable from naval assault in both the Baltic and Black seas. Russian artillery is something I am less sure of, but judging that their guns as far as I can work out were iron cast using its much more likely they were developed internally with influences from Sweden, The Netherlands and Britain especially as Peter was always looking easterly. There may also be a large degree of influence from the Ottomans, who also favoured large poundage weapons.

    I'm not aware of any exceptions or suspensions to the restrictions of Venetian cannon trading. Its also important ot remember that its very rare that nations would trade weapons during wartime in general, war would suck up resources and cannons would be needed domestically, which was something far more pressing than making money off selling them to even friendly nations. The last example of any real foreign use of Venetian resources by allies at all seems to be Lepanto in 1571 where the vast majority of ships and guns were Venetian, although a great number of them were manned by Spanish and Austrians men.
     
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  17. Burak Damgacı

    Burak Damgacı Well-Known Member

    Thanks for valuable information again Fluffy.
     
  18. Kamilow

    Kamilow Well-Known Member

    This Venetian thread is very , very interesting but unfortunately devs have it deep in ass. So much sad. :mad:. Venice should be one of the coolest faction, but from the beginning they have absolutely nothing.:confused: Creators should learn from the competition as they making and next supporting RTS-games. But they are asleep.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2017
  19. Kamilow

    Kamilow Well-Known Member

    Nice and interesting game about Venice. This faction have big potential in few historical aspects. Cossacks 3 devs - do something with this! :cool:

     
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  20. Kamilow

    Kamilow Well-Known Member

    Great job Burak. ;)
     
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