What is your current build order? And what faction do you play

Discussion in 'General Discussions' started by iamchets, Oct 3, 2016.

  1. kaiser_frisia

    kaiser_frisia Member

    Just leave this thread Nowy. You dont bring anything new to the table. You just say your opinion over and over again. We dont need that in this thread. We know your opinion from every second thread in this forum.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
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  2. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, it will be too long to send a scout and not so interesting as one worker won't work early in game while scouting. At that point what you must look are the point of the other player, if one goes for a barrack he will have more point early due to building and producing more unit. On the contrary a player that go for a second townhall will fall behind in term of point before suddenly catching on. Later on, you will have your dummer scout to work as point won't tell you much anymore !
    Playing almost any nation I love to go for two townhall early, but I can't always do that. With Turkey sometimes I build a stable before a barrack or a second townhall; because of tatar !
     
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  3. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member

    I have a build order which goes okay against weak and some medium players. Good players have no trouble defeating me. I suspect part of my problem is my build order. It is slightly late on getting the market and selling coal. It seems to take me too long to get the Academy and then the Diplomatic Centre (and extra mines). I think I put too many peasants on food gathering and I push through too may pike upgrades too soon. It catches out weaker and medium players but strong players defend with pikes in front and archers behind them. My upgraded pikes lose to pikes plus archers near the enemy base. Clearly this opening is unsound against really good players. Any suggestions? Here is the build order for what it is worth.

    Rush Build Order – Euro 18th C nations – 1x map – Normal Resources

    1. Town Centre - queue 5 peasants to stone.

    2. Mill.

    3. Shed near wood.

    4. 18 starting peasants to wood.

    5. Market as soon as available (built by 18 peasants from the wood area and 8 then go back to wood)

    6. Blacksmith - have queued after the market build. Do food field upgrade in Black Smith.

    7. Sell 1,000 coal for food in market.

    8. Switch Town Centre queue to field, set infinite peasant production, do 1st mill upgrade.

    9. Barracks built after blacksmith (with same 10 peasants).

    10. Queue these 10 builder peasants to do an iron mine and gold mine in that order after barracks. (Only a gold mine if Poland and put extra 5 peasants on food.)

    11. Set Barracks queue to infinite production.

    12. 2nd Town Centre by the 13 peasants left on wood and stone gathering by the above steps.

    13. Academy build by the 13 peasants left on wood and stone gathering by the above steps (and maybe some from food to help it build fast).

    14. Then place those 13 peasants back on wood (7) and stone (6) and other spares back to food.

    15. Run Academy upgrade for wood gathering as soon as possible.

    16. Depending on tactical needs, start running cheap pike attack and defence upgrades.

    17. Build second Gold Mine with 5 peasants from food field about now.

    18. Make one drummer and one officer, make a formation and attack.

    19. Run as many pike attack and defence upgrades now as possible.

    20. Build Diplomatic centre and send builders back to wood and stone.
    Note: Always take builders from wood and stone and send them back there.

    21. As soon as diplo finished, make 20 mercenary hussars. You should have enough gold.

    While you are waiting for the resources necessary to build the diplomatic centre, it probably will be necessary to adjust how many peasants are on wood and how many are on stone or even add more. It is obviously most efficient and quicker for getting a fast diplomatic centre if you achieve the necessary wood and stone stashes at close to the same time.

    This build is for attacking early and attacking often. Send first pikes early as you can. Then, usually you can get your second pike group of 36 men plus about 20 mercenary hussars to hit the enemy base at the same time but in different spots. If the opponent defends well, change into the game style you would use for a 5,000 resources start. You will have a 5,000s size base by then.

    Added Notes.

    This rush build order is founded on the idea of attacking early with upgraded pikes. This is what a chess player would call a gambit (gambling or chancy) opening. Attacking first is theoretically unsound. The reason is that the defender has shorter reinforcement lines and thus more troops at the battle which will be nearer his base. Thus defending is theoretically and strategically more sound. However, accurate defence in these real time games is quite hard to execute tactically speaking. The attacker can wrest the tactical initiative as soon as the defender makes a mistake.

    Attacking can simplfy the strategic equation. You will have pushed pikes, pike upgrades and merc. sich cossacks and/or merc. archers at your opponent. When he sees this early attack coming, he has to rush pike upgrades and/or defending archers post haste. If he does not do this he immediately loses, basically. If he does this and appears to be ready to defend adequately and accurately, then you have to be careful. How do you know he is ready and not vulnerable or unready and vulnerable?

    1. Check the game score. If his score is equal or better than yours then he is probably at least as good as you. Use caution.

    2. Try to provoke 1 v 1 pike duels between his pike scouts and your pike scouts away from your main forces. From the results of these duels you can assess the relative state of his pike upgrades versus your pike upgrades.
    3. Assess as best you can, how many sich Cossacks, archers and maybe other diplo units he has on the field. These numbers are a good barometer of how prepared he is.

    4. Demonstrate in his sight range with your pike formations, when you assess it is not safe to attack, but stay out of archer and shot range. These demonstrations will make him fear a pike attack and make him push pike upgrades instead of sitting back comfortably and building a better economy than yours.

    5. In some cases, you can use these demonstrations to circle his base and you may be able to have him watching two or three of your pike groups. Then you can sometimes zigzag one group a few times (net lag, reaction times and his divided attention are your friends and his enemies in these manoeuvres) and slip past his formation. Walk for the peasants and attack peasants if you can.

    6. Just be careful these manoeuvres don’t result in you dividing your forces too much or getting a pike group cut off from support.

    7. Don’t be too proud to retreat if you have too. You can run economic and military upgrades while you retreat.

    8. Some players get over-confident when they see a retreat and then go on an incautious full attack. Now the extra reinforcements from short reinforcement lines will be your advantage and it will be harder for the enemy to flank you now you have greater defender numbers on the field.

    9. Really good players won’t make mistake 8.


    I might add that really good players get a diplo centre earlier than I do and then my whole plan falls to pieces. Their archers sit behind their pikes and destroy my pikes. If I retreat my pikes, they often have some mercenary dragoons by this stage and my retreating pikes leave a trail of their own dead. I don't have anything to cover the retreat. Without replays, I have not yet figured out how good players get such an early diplomatic center and the gold to feed its production. I must have too many peasants in the food field. I must need more on wood, stone and gold early.

    This pike rush with upgrades is clearly an unsound opening. Feel free to enlighten me. :)
     
  4. kaiser_frisia

    kaiser_frisia Member

    I would recommend building a gold mine after step 2 the mill. Then you wont have to send all workers to gather food, because you can trade the early gold for eveerything you need. A early second gold mine is therefore essential. For the upgrades i can recommend to do the first 3 upgrades on defense and offense. this gives you the most value because the third upgrades gives +3 on attack and on pike armor. the 4th upgrade only gives +1 like the first and it is expensive. Myself I attack only if i have both of the third upgrades. My opponent often have none of them and i crush em, even with archers in the back.
     
  5. Gambler71

    Gambler71 New Member

    Doesn't anyone use Priests?

    If so just wondering how they are meant to be used, which is best, attached to a squad using the GUARD option, or as their own FORMATION following around and manually placed into position?
     
  6. Falc09

    Falc09 Active Member

    For me priests are mostly not worth the costs and micromanagement. I sometimes use some in my defensive lines, but to make a significant difference you need hundrets of priests.

    Moreover I prefere mobile cavalary warefare based on hit and run attacks from different directions.
     
  7. Željko

    Željko New Member

    I don't build towers at all except on tinny island :) but walls yes as fast as possible. specialy when we have peace time more then 10 min. Walls are very useful agains surprises and they provide some security to build your economy in relative peace. Some times I was made two lines of walls (agains Ucraine!)
     
  8. Željko

    Željko New Member

    Oh I HATE priests!! In RL and in a game. maybe they are useful sometimes , but they are parasites as in real life. :)
     
    Loner likes this.
  9. Nath33killer

    Nath33killer Member

    All fire system has to be remade musketeers have to inflict much more damage but have much longer reload time. The actual problem in the game with musketeers is not that musketeers vs pikemen fight is so in favor of pikemen but that pikemen +musketeers vs more pikemen always finishes with the second group's victory. Musketeers have to be a complex weapon efficient when you control it well for example fire and retreat behind melee troops but very weak alone.
     
  10. Nath33killer

    Nath33killer Member

    Be careful with what you say god is watching you
     
  11. Francesco_Cavalli

    Francesco_Cavalli Active Member

    As are people who are related to/friends of/where helped through difficult times by priests/vicars...

    Worst thing about priests ingame is when the ai builds ridiculous half priest/half pike formations
     
  12. Anatotitan

    Anatotitan Active Member

    Remember that you cannot heal what is ripped apart by artrillery fire.

    Either that or fight fire with fire.
     
  13. Francesco_Cavalli

    Francesco_Cavalli Active Member

    Oh I didn't mean because it's difficult, I meant because it's so ridiculous. 9/10 I get some fairly sensible pike/musket armies sent against me at the beginning, then pike/priest ones midway through the match, then archer spam at the end when they're desperate
     
  14. General WVPM

    General WVPM Member

    I mostly play with 5k resources and 20 PT.
    1. build 2 town halls (both on infinite peasant production), a mill and storehouse
    2. sell all iron and coal for wood and stone and sell all or a portion of my gold for food, depending on gold mines nearby,
    3. buy 3rd town hall
    4. build up military and rest (basically pikespam + 18c merc dragoons)
    5. place a few pikes near everything that can be captured to defend against '1 cossacks to ruin your day' tactic
    6. (optional) rush 18th century + 2nd mill upgrade and balloon

    I mostly only go for 5 if noone is building up to rush me.

    When playing poland, i go for stables and put winged hussars on infinite.

    This mostly allows me to win in team games, though it can struggle against rush nations, like the OP algerian cav (you need multibarrel for them).

    This is all for europeans, for muslims, 2-3 barracks with pikespam + as many stables on infinite melee cav as possible. Then cap peasants, build up their stuff (easy popcap) and get resource upgrades for max income.

    If I'm too far from my teammates, I sometimes migrate to them. Although it is a setback, it's like 5 mins lost + bad trades. Otherwise you get gangbanged cause you got 3 opponents at your border...

    If my team is in a bad position, I often decide to build STONE (wood is pointless) walls between mountains and such to limit the area we have to defend. As long as you don't build a wall all around, noone will even bother to destroy it and walk around it (into our armies). Walls help a lot vs raids, but they are obsolete as soon as the first armies have clashed. By then several players will be dead and the others will take time to plan and prepare to attack eachother. This means they'll get cannons and bye wall...

    If a game drags on for about an hour, I start building 18c musketeers en masse, though I never bother with 18c cav. Be sure to keep producing 17c pikes throughout the game nonstop, they are dirtcheap and have armor (apart from poland and muslims). They can't die from multibarrel as such, 18c gets rekt by it.

    Note that my build order is not to be seen as my personal preference of playing...
    It's just that I don't like losing the minute peace time ends by going with inefficient playstyles...
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2016
  15. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member


    Good tips, good info thanks.
     
  16. HUNRex

    HUNRex Member

    I have something similar build order and upgrades.
    But there is something I am not sure about. Academy upgrades for shooters also refer to mercenary dragoons?
    For example the rate of fire 35 % also works on mercenary dragoons?
     
  17. (OC)Fotheringill

    (OC)Fotheringill Active Member

    I now play random. There is no one nation to play all of the time. It depends on resources and pt or no pt.
     
  18. Foeurdr

    Foeurdr Moderator Staff Member

    Mercenary aren't affected by any upgrade, the mercenary dragoon will fire fast no matter if you have the upgrade or not, same for the merc. grenadiers
     
  19. Ftoomsh

    Ftoomsh Well-Known Member

    I still wonder why in the heck are 18th dragoon mercenaries available in the 17th C. This is just wrong. Yes, I know it was in C1 but it's still wrong. However, the balance problems with C3 are as long as one's arm, so no point listing them here. The fundamental concept design and balance problem relates to market reverse trading and too rapid mercenary production. Some style of realism mod is the way to go IMO. The economy and market have to become more realistic simulations too. No real market operates anything like the C3 market. Wish it did. I have a real rocky patch of land. I could pay labourers to mine my stone and then I'd sell it for gold. I'd be a billionaire in no time. ;)

    At the same time, let me say many things are great about C3 and a realism mod would bring out these good features. C3 is a diamond in the rough. It needs a balance-realism mod to polish it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2016
    Starmanus likes this.
  20. Daddio

    Daddio Moderator Staff Member

    Lets remake the "Iron Man" mod!

    All of this was addressed.
     
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